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Year VI: Half Blood Prince Discuss, Snape Is Not Voldemort's Man at Books: The Restricted Section of the Library forum
Originally posted by awigo50@Aug 7 2005, 04:21 PM First off, we should step back and look at this '...

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Old 08-08-2005, 08:53 PM
TeenLeigh TeenLeigh is offline Scan TeenLeigh
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Quote:
Originally posted by awigo50@Aug 7 2005, 04:21 PM
First off, we should step back and look at this 'plan' that dumbledore and snape supposibly have. There are a few big flaws in it.

One. Compare the benifits of Snape's death vs. Dumbledore's.
Dumbledore was the only one Voldermort ever feared. He was a wizard bright enough to figure out voldermort's Horcruxs and destroy at least one. He's brilliant, smooth runs the resistance, and is a stablizing force in the wizarding world. Who's snape? Just some potions teacher. If he dies, not much happens. Sure, they lose the inside link to voldermort- but that hasn't been horribly useful has it? Snape wasn't even let in on the plan to lure Harry into the DOM, or the attack on the DOM. Snape's really not all that useful.

Two. No one was informed.
This is key. Harry, for one, will never, ever trust snape again. Never. Let's face facts, folks... You can tell harry all the stories you want, but he isn't going to listen. Dumbledore promised Harry that he'd let him in on all he knew. If there was this big plan, why wasn't Harry let in? Dumbledore trusted him with the destruction of the Horcruxs, but not this? Who would Snape report to? Who would all his spying help, anyway? Apparantly, nobody in the order was told about the plan, as we see them all in the hospital wing, nobody comes out and says- 'ahh, but dumbledore told me of a plan'...

Dumbledore would have realized, had he made a plan, that someone needed to know in advance. No one will believe snape now.


In reality, I should expect the theory. It's typical denial- "dumbledore just can't be dead". Yea, actually he can. Remember Sirius Black? If you step back and look over the plot, there is simply no room for such a theory. Yes- the passages in the book are meant to keep you guessing until the end. But the end is fact, folks. Fact, cannon, whatever you call it, it flat out happened.
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Okay, lets see,

First I want to thank you for responding to my post!! I also want to add that I am just debating here. My opinions are strictly mine and I in no way, shape, or form believe that I know the truth of the matter. I just want to discuss the possibilities.

The comparing issue! Voldemort may have feared Dumbledore but Voldemort believes that ONLY Harry can kill him, as per the prophecy (which Voldemort whole heartedly believes or he wouldn't have gone after Harry to begin with). Voldemort, I think, only feared Dumbledore because Dumbledore always knew
him and his secrets or could find them out! There were some mighty big secrets that Dumbledore could find out (Horcruxes). I think that Voldemort was scared that Dumbledore could and would find his Horcruxes and destroy them leaving him well, not mortal but able to be killed (by Harry). So, if Dumbledore were dead Voldemort wouldn't have to worry about his Horcruxes being discovered and or destroyed and would be a little less cautious about there whereabouts and or their protection (Voldemort thought that Dumbledore was the only wizard mightier than himself).

So, could the trade be the knowledge of the Horcruxes which is THE ONLY WAY Harry will be able to kill Voldemort? Of course Snape is the only one on the inside of the Dark side and in a position to find out.

Your second point is that no one knew about the plan. I do not have a strong argument here except to say that if a secret is a matter of life and death its always best to keep your mouth shut! If Dumbledore and Snape had a plan that included Dumbledore dying ( I am unsure about the reality of his death, I tend to think he is DEAD.) then wouldn't he let everyone in the ORDER think that he is dead? There are those memory charms that could be used on anyone in the ORDER and then the secret would be out! Kind of like a need to know basis! The ORDER didn't need to know the truth in case they were to get captured. Harry for one did not need to be in on any such plan because he would not have gone along with it! I know he made him drink the potion in the basin but he also knew, because Dumbledore told him, that the potion would not kill Dumbledore right away. I think Harry assumed that they would have plenty of time to get back to Hogwarts and get treatment.
As for the trusting Snape issue I think that if Harry knew of a plan and had to face Voldemort, Voldemort would be able to see into Harry's mind and know the truth because Harry has a problem closing off his mind. Dumbledore and Snape both know this fact about Harry.
I don't know, like I said, I don't have a strong argument here.

Your other issue was JKR keeping us guessing! I cannot reply to that because I cannot read her mind but I can say that she has said before that there are enough clues in her books to be able to guess the truth. Maybe these are some of those clues?

All in all I think you have very valid points and I appreciate your input. So, keep them coming!

Sorry for any misspellings!
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Old 08-08-2005, 08:53 PM
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Old 08-09-2005, 07:17 PM
awigo50 awigo50 is offline Scan awigo50
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I in no way, shape, or form believe that I know the truth of the matter. I just want to discuss the possibilities.

You're not JK? Really? Like, not even in disquise, posing as just another fan! *Sighs, disappointedly* Oh well...


Voldemort believes that ONLY Harry can kill him

Voldermort shows some caution. He doesn't meander about Diagon alley buying quills, does he? I think he knows that he can be overpowered and killed. As he has "never sought a duel with dumbledore" & considering his failed duel in the ministry, I would say that dumbledore was a enemy that dumbledore expected to be a worthy advisary.



The ORDER didn't need to know the truth in case they were to get captured.

Someone Harry trusts with his life would have to know. Because that's what he's entrusting to accept snape back. And where is this person, so far away from Harry, that they couldn't attend Dumbledore's funeral and tell him? It just doesn't add up. If harry was going to be told about such a plot, it would have been in six.

Unraveling and explaining the whole snape theory is going to take a chapter or two... And JK is already looking at a packed full book, considering Harry needs to kill half a dozen Horcruxs and Voldermort, stay at the dursleys, flirt with ginny, & attend Bill & fleur's wedding... And seven has to be shorter than OotP- "The benchmark" for how long a book can be according to JK, who still thinks it's too long, but can't find anything that could be cut.

Then again, I wouldn't be sad or suprised if JK announced that the series was going to require a book 8...

My thoughts deteriorate. That'll happen after a 12 1/2 hour work day. G'night.
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Old 08-10-2005, 01:14 PM
TooThLess TooThLess is offline Scan TooThLess
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when hagrid was talking to harry about dumbledores and snapes argument he mentioned something about dumbledore agreeing to do it is dat relevant or not ...


and also if no one else missed it id like to point out that treleway ?*cant spell* has now made 3 prophecies of the future .. the first bring the one fortelling harrys and voldemorts final showdown ... the second being that voldemorts helper aka wormtail would go to him resulting in voldemorts return to his body ... and third ... in the sixth book harry is on his way to dumbledores office i think for either the 1st or second lesson *not sure of page* she is shuffling through the cards

2 of spades = conflict
summit = ill omen
summit = violence
sumit = a young dark man probably troubled and questions his master or summit

now the conflict one would of been the start of the fight between the order and the death eaters

the ill omen would of been the dark mark
violence would of been the continuing screams etc dumbledore could here below
and the dark young man obviously would of been draco ..

i beleoive draco would die in the next one trying to help harry

and snape or amelia bones was RAB ?

my thoughts
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Old 08-10-2005, 08:20 PM
TeenLeigh TeenLeigh is offline Scan TeenLeigh
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Quote:
Originally posted by awigo50@Aug 9 2005, 07:17 PM

You're not JK? Really? Like, not even in disquise, posing as just another fan! *Sighs, disappointedly* Oh well...



Very Funny!




Voldermort shows some caution. He doesn't meander about Diagon alley buying quills, does he? I think he knows that he can be overpowered and killed. As he has "never sought a duel with dumbledore" & considering his failed duel in the ministry, I would say that dumbledore was a enemy that dumbledore expected to be a worthy advisary.



I don't think its caution.* I think Voldemorts not meandering about Diagon Alley or the likes is because he thinks he's too good for such trivial things.* I mean if he thinks he's "all that" as the kids say, wouldn't he have servants to do his bidding?* I picture him sitting on some thrown (not a real thrown mind you,* some dark thing in a dark place) demanding this and that.* Until fight time.* But as you stated, his failed duel at the ministry,* neither he nor Dumbledore tried to kill the other did they?* This is a question, I can't remember the spells that flew back and forth.* I remember Voldemort trying to kill Harry and Dumbledore defending Harry with spells.* But, I may be wrong in that.* Anyway, my point lies in what I remember so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.* Now, to my point, Voldemort didn't seem too worried about Dumbledore killing him at the Ministry.* He hung around to try to kill Harry even in Dumbledore's presence. If Voldemort killed Harry in front of Dumbledore wouldn't that tick off Dumbledore just a little?* I think that Dumbledore would kill him for sure for that and I'm sure if Voldemort was scared of Dumbledore for that reason, Voldemort would have high-tailed it out of there the minute he knew Dumbledore was there? Why would he stay and try to kill Harry in front of the one wizard he feared most, knowing to do so would bring Dumbledore's wrath down on him for sure?


Because he does not fear Dumbledore killing him!!!* He fears him for some other reason.




Someone Harry trusts with his life would have to know. Because that's what he's entrusting to accept snape back. And where is this person, so far away from Harry, that they couldn't attend Dumbledore's funeral and tell him? It just doesn't add up. If harry was going to be told about such a plot, it would have been in six.


Dumbledore entrusted Harry's safety to the entire ORDER!!!!* I mean that's what the whole ORDER is about, defeating Voldemort, and Harry is the only one who can do that!* The ORDER did not need to be told what to do if Dumbledore died!* They already knew what to do.* Protect Harry until the time comes for him to do HIS job!* No questions asked!* To the ORDER,* it doesn't matter if the killing was a plan or not.* They're mission remains the same with or without Dumbledore.* Only they're safer not knowing anything about a plan (if there was one).*

I really don't think Harry will ever forgive Snape for killing Dumbledore even if he knew it was an agreement.* I also think it won't matter because Snape will die for the cause in the end, he has to redeem himself doesn't he?


Unraveling and explaining the whole snape theory is going to take a chapter or two... And JK is already looking at a packed full book, considering Harry needs to kill half a dozen Horcruxs and Voldermort, stay at the dursleys, flirt with ginny, & attend Bill & fleur's wedding... And seven has to be shorter than OotP- "The benchmark" for how long a book can be according to JK, who still thinks it's too long, but can't find anything that could be cut.


One easy way to bring this conspiricy theory out would be Dumbledore's portrait in his office (McGonagall's office now).* I know, much too easy, but it could happen!* Dumbledore could have also left some memories in the pensieve or something.* Oh by the way, I liked your humor in that passage.

Then again, I wouldn't be sad or suprised if JK announced that the series was going to require a book 8...


I wish!*

What do you think Harry's odds are at finishing the series alive?*






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Old 08-10-2005, 08:32 PM
mischiefmanaged mischiefmanaged is offline Scan mischiefmanaged
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by jove, i think youve got it!!
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Old 08-11-2005, 10:50 AM
SiriusBlack SiriusBlack is offline Scan SiriusBlack
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This is gettin' good.Well all I can add is that killing Dumbledore is not earning Snape some much needed popularity points.But I don't think it's important if maybe down the line Snape is gonna have to lay his life down as well(does it really matter if people like you or not if you are doin what you have to,and will somhow be for the greater good),if they are tryin' to win a war that cannot be solved just by killing Voldemort(because he cannot "be" killed at this present moment),they have to plan,know and understand everything that they posibly can.So if Harry and the whole world hates and think's you are a traitor doesn't really seem too important if you are doin' it for a greater cause.Personally if I was told I was goin' to be hunted down and hated by every single person in this world but I was goin' to do something that will ensure their well being I would not hesitate for a second,would you?Are you that vain?LOL.What is this greater cause you say and how do I know there is one?Simple,I don't know,nobody really knows what is what,we are all just tryin' to figure things out.But thinkin' back,is it posible that Dumbledore knew all along and expected the events to unfold(maybe not exactly)as they have?When Voldemort was first thought to be dead,he never really asumed that.He thought otherwise.He said so in book one.He could have suspected of the Horcruxes since the day he tried to kill Harry when he was a baby and faild to do so.But none the less Voldemort was not killed either so he must have done something to keep him from being killed.But what?Hmm..well Dumbledore being the greatest wizard of our time(and quite smart I might add) probably knew about Horcuxes(why even Slughorn knew about them and he is not refered to as the greatest....well anything).And he also knew about the Prophecy.
Also thinkin' a little more he also knew how Mr. Riddle(or Tom as he liked to call him)felt about the rest of the world and that he was a very,very smart and capable young man. So he had a grater weapon at his disposal than the rest of the wizarding community,knowledg.In book six he mentioned he had the Horcrux theory but he just needed to confrim it and he did.And right from book one it's been like he has been preparin' Harry to fullfil the Prophecy.Knowing he was just a boy(James Potter's boy to be exact,whom along with Sirius Black left behind the measuring stick for troublemakin')he gave him an invisible cape nad left behind the mirror of......(a little help here,I can't remember the bloody thing's name lol).Dumbledore took it away when he knew Harry had figured out how it works,he had learned what he neede to learn.And I'm guesin' Dumbledore did nothing about the encounter between Quirrel and Harry(I refuse to beleive that he did not notice Quirrel's little umm... "problem")because he knew the magic wich protected him once all those years ago would save him agaain,so he was not in real danger.Still I'm guesin' that maybe he wanted to know more of Voldermort's true state(how weak was he)plans and anything else that would prove usefull.Chamber Of Secrets he didn't leave Harry to face Lord Voldemort(AKA Tom Marvolo Riddle) and a Basilisk on his own.Granted the "old hat" hat and the "bird" did not seem like much but they saved his life.And Harry was able to know who Voldemort was before he became You-Know-Who.And similar things in all the books.Because at any point it seemed that Dumbledore could've done something to influence the outcome of the events.But he left Harry to figure out things on his own.I know you are probably asleep by now,but here we go.Dumbledore did not mention anything to Harry or showed him everything he knew about Lord Voldemort until book No. 6.
Why do that? Maybe Dumbledore intended to find and destroy the Horcux(or Horcruxes,I think he was a little unsure of how many Lord Voldemort had made untill the memory from Slughorn gave him a better idea)himself,but with the little detail that maybe he would have to die to save the life of Draco and Snape,his plans might not unfold that way.All the memories he showed Harry where very,very old wich means it was not something they were learning toghether(Dumbledore had already seen them),it was something he was teaching Harry so that he would understand his theory.Sometimes it's hard to explain something with just words.But if you lead someone to draw similar conclusions that you have already made it will be easier to understand and remember things for that person.
Thus he did the same with Harry,he showed him the memories and explained things along the way and Harry picked-up on Dumbledore's theory.That is why maybe he showed Harry all that,because he knew he would be dead.The burned hand and drinkin' the potion where also maybe examples of how dangerous it would be to find and destroy the remaining Horcruxes(I mean if another wizard was able to retrieve the locket and leave the potion there I think Dumbledore would have been able to do the same).Same thing with the ring,would he have been as careles to just take the ring and destroy it just like that without thinkin there was some protective curse?With all this Dumbledore was maybe willing to die now that he knew he left Harry behind well armed.He passed on the same weapon he once had(the secret of Lord Voldemort's immortality),he left him with the remaining members of the Order of the Phoenix,he knew he had 2 great friends that would be by his side no matter what and if we dare think it,yes,help from within the very Death Eaters(when it comes down to it).And looking at the H P formula,in every book you are lead to believe one thing or another but in the end all of you're theories are shot down badly.The ending is always way,way off from what everyone imagined.That's why we keep reading the books,because we know she is not that obvios,when she says black,she really means bright lilac with flowers(thought I was gonna say white did you :P ) and we wan't to know what it all really means and how it ends.Well I say this because this is not book 1,book 2,etc.This is chapter one H P and T P S,Chapter two H P nad T C O S,Chapter three H P and T P O A,chapter four H P and T G O F,chapter five H P and T O O T P,chapter six H P and T H B P,chapter seven H P and ?????.She always waits untill the very las chapter to let you in on the result of all that long and strange ecuation.So looking at the big picture this has all been one long story wich is about to end,so she is goin' to let it all out in the final book.Well if anyone is still awake I apolgize for the long Term Paper.
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Old 08-11-2005, 11:30 AM
greeneyedwitch greeneyedwitch is offline Scan greeneyedwitch
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Not too bad Sirius. That seems well thought out and it shows. I too believe that we will never know till the last chapter of the last book the full on story of what was going on in Dumbledores mind. Unfortunately, much to the dismay of myself and many others, we have to wait till 2007 for that to happen I belive.

I think for now I will say (and believe) that Professor Dumbledore knows what he is doing (notice the present tense of Knows LOL :P ).

I will let my imagination run a muck with what I think might happen in the future knowing full well I will probably be wrong because as you said JK never really lets us in on what is going to happen till it does.

I will admit its fun to see everyones thoughts on what they hope and expect will happen.
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Old 08-11-2005, 12:33 PM
SiriusBlack SiriusBlack is offline Scan SiriusBlack
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Quote:
Originally posted by greeneyedwitch@Aug 11 2005, 12:30 PM
Not too bad Sirius. That seems well thought out and it shows. I too believe that we will never know till the last chapter of the last book the full on story of what was going on in Dumbledores mind. Unfortunately, much to the dismay of myself and many others, we have to wait till 2007 for that to happen I belive.

I think for now I will say (and believe) that Professor Dumbledore knows what he is doing (notice the present tense of Knows LOL* :P ).

I will let my imagination run a muck with what I think might happen in the future knowing full well I will probably be wrong because as you said JK never really lets us in on what is going to happen till it does.

I will admit its fun to see everyones thoughts on what they hope and expect will happen.
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Old 08-12-2005, 08:24 PM
mmhins00 mmhins00 is offline Scan mmhins00
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That is absolutely brilliant!
It makes perfect sense and goes along with my theories about othe things that seem to be going on in the background.


14
Quote:
Originally posted by Blondiehop@Aug 8 2005, 03:47 PM
Does anyone think that when Snape first came to Dumbledore rigth after James and Lily's death, that he swore the unbreakable vow with Dumbledore? It might explain why Dumbledore was so adamant about trusting Snape.
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Old 08-13-2005, 11:04 PM
TeenLeigh TeenLeigh is offline Scan TeenLeigh
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[quote]

It makes perfect sense and goes along with my theories about othe things that seem to be going on in the background.

Well, tell us your theories then! Come on, I stuck my neck out and posted my possibly "preposterous" theory! We're probably all way off base but like GreenEyedWitch said its fun to hear others theories and thoughts.

And Dear Dear SiriusBlack, thank you for posting longer than me! I was beginning to think I might talk too much! I have never been accused of that I'm sure (HA)! Really though, I think you supported my theory and I'd love to hear more!

To anyone else who might still be reading this topic...even and especially if you do not agree with this theory, please debate with us. We won't scream too loud and we won't bite so join in! We have 2 more years to come to our own conclusions and discussing our theories would fill the time nicely. Plus, when the 7th book finally comes out you will be able to say "I told ya so", but not if you don't post so get to posting!
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