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Year VI: Half Blood Prince Discuss, Dumbledore Is Not Dead at The Restricted Section of the Library forum
These are some of the clues contained in the pages of Harry Pottter and the Half-Blood Prince which support ...

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Old 09-18-2005, 03:21 PM
emily.butterfly emily.butterfly is offline Scan emily.butterfly
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These are some of the clues contained in the pages of Harry Pottter and the Half-Blood Prince which support the possibility that Dumbledore is not really dead, and that everything that happened that night was planned well in advance by Dumbledore himself.

Harry and Dumbledore are up on the top of the tower underneath the Dark Mark. Harry is wearing his invisibility cloak, Dumbledore ordered him to put it on before they mounted their brooms to ride to the top of the tower. Harry hears footsteps and looks around, but Dumbledore orders him with a gesture to retreat. Harry draws his wand and backs away:

The door burst open and somebody erupted through it and shouted, "Expelliarmus!" Harry's body became instantly rigid and immobile, and he felt himself fall back against the tower wall, propped like an unsteady statue, unable to move or speak.(HBP pg 584/545)

It's interesting to note that things are happening so fast, even Harry is momentarily confused:

He could not understand how it happened -- Expelliarmus was not a Freezing Charm -- Then, by the light of the Mark, he saw Dumbledore's wand flying in an arc over the edge of the ramparts and understood... Dumbledore had wordlessly immobilzed Harry, and the second he had taken to perform this spell had cost him the chance of defending himself. (HBP pg 584/545)

Why did Dumbledore freeze Harry? Harry was already invisible to their attackers and in no danger.

The only explanation could be that Dumbledore already knew, had already planned, that he would die this night (or appear to die), and not only did he not want Harry to become involved and possibly be injured himself, he needed Harry to be a witness, to be able to tell everyone else what happened.

Dumbledore might have also promised Snape that he would make sure that Harry would not be able to interfere, knowing how Harry feels about Snape and what Snape was about to have to do.

The supposition that it was Dumbledore's plan to do this all along is supported by the fact that he acted so quickly to do it, almost without thinking, when Draco burst in on the scene.

Harry's own assumption that the Freezing Charm was done by Dumbledore is supported by the fact the curse lifted when Dumbledore left the tower minutes later




We've seen Fawkes come in at the last moment and save Harry's life in Chamber of Secrets:

As Harry trembled, ready to close his eyes if it turned, he saw what had distracted the snake. Fawkes was soaring around its head, and the basilisk was snapping furiously at him with fangs long and thin as sabers -- Fawkes dived. His long golden beak sunk out of sight and a sudden shower of dark blood spattered the floor. (CoS pg 318/234)

And he also saved Dumbledore in Order of the Phoenix:

... one more jet of green light had flown at Dumbledore from Voldemort's wand and the snake had struck -- Fawkes swooped down in front of Dumbledore, opened his beak wide, and swallowed the jet of green light whole. He burst into flame and fell to the floor, small, wrinkled and flightless. (OotP pg 814/719)

We know Fawkes was nearby the tower, as he shows up after Dumbledore's "death". So, why didn't Fawkes come to save Dumbledore this time?

I think the fact that he didn't makes it possible to believe that Dumbledore didn't want his life to be saved, and this supports the theory that it was Dumbledore's plan all along to "die" up on that tower that night.

4. The Flying Avada Kedavra

As soon as I read the description of exactly what happened the moment that Snape killed Dumbledore, little red flags were popping up in my brain, but I didn't pay attention to them at first. This was actually the very first clue that alerted me to this whole thing.

Every other time we've seen the Avada Kedavra performed, the victim simply falls over dead:

He was screaming so loudly that he never heard the words the thing in the chair spoke as it raised a wand. There was a flash of green light, a rushing sound, and Frank Bryce crumbled. He was dead before he hit the floor. (GoF pg 15/19)

From high above his head, he heard a high, cold voice say, "Kill the spare." A swishing noise and a second voice, which screeched the words to the night: "Avada Kedavra!" A blast of green light blazed through Harry's eyelids, and he heard something heavy fall to ground beside him. Cedric was lying spread-eagled on the ground beside him. He was dead. (GoF pg 638/553)

However, in Half-Blood Prince, when Snape curses Dumbledore with the same spell, Dumbledore violently flies up and away from the tower:

Snape raised his wand and pointed it directly at Dumbledore. "Avada Kedavra!" A jet of green light shot from the end of Snape's wand and hit Dumbledore squarely in the chest. Harry's scream of horror never left him; silently he was forced to watch as Dumbledore was blasted into the air. For a split second, he seemed to hang suspended beneath the shining skull, and then he slowly fell backward, like a great rag doll, over the battlements and out of sight. (HBP pg 596/556)

Why would this application of the Avada Kedavra be so different from every other time we've seen it?

Perhaps his spell was different because even though those were the words Snape said, he didn't perform the killing curse at all. Remember all the importance this book gave to "nonverbal" spells? Perhaps Snape said Avada Kedavra, but the curse he was really thinking, the nonverbal one, was a different curse, one that only made it appear that Dumbledore was dead.

Even the title of the chapter this all takes place in is suspicous, "The Lightning-Struck Tower". Even though this is the name of the ominous tarot card that Trelawney was worried about back on page 543/507 in chapter 25, is it possible that J.K. is hinting here that the spell was not Avada Kedavra, just some green lightning sparks for show?


5. Don't Point That At Me Unless You Mean It

Several times in the course of the Harry Potter books, J.K. has told us that the Avada Kedavra is not a curse you can make lightly.

In Goblet of Fire, the fake Mad Eye Moody tells his DADA class:

"Avada Kedavra's a curse that needs a powerful bit of magic behind it -- you could all get your wands out now and point them at me and say the words, and I doubt I'd get so much as a nosebleed." (GoF pg 217/192)

And in Order of the Phoenix, we learn more about Avada Kedavra when Harry tries to curse Bellatrix:

Hatred rose in Harry such that he had never known before. He flung himself out from behind the fountain and bellowed "Crucio!" Bellatrix screamed. The spell had knocked her off her feet, but she did not writhe or shriek with pain as Neville had -- she was already on her feet again ... "Never used an Unforgivable Curse before, have you, boy?" she yelled. "You need to mean them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain -- to enjoy it ..." (OotP pg 810/715)

If Snape was really working on Dumbledore's orders to make it look to the world as if Snape had killed him, even if he had used the real Avada Kedavra, if he had not really meant it, if he really didn't want to kill Dumbledore, then isn't possible that the curse didn't kill Dumbledore, but only injured him badly?

Maybe dumbledore was never dead ?
what do u think ?
Is he really dead?
give your opinions .

[/b]
[font=Comic Sans Ms]personally, i think dumbledore knew he was going ot die every since harry was born, he was just making sure he died at the right time. i think he made an unbreakable vow with snape. i know it sounds crazy, but here me out! snape and dumbledore made an unbreakable vow that snape would not kill dumbledore until the time was right, which would be after harry knew everything he needed to know. perhaps dumbledore was pleading because he was saying, 'please, not yet, not yet, it's a fake Horcrux!' but snape didn't listen because everything was going according to plan (the death eaters in the school). is anyone on the same page as me? dumbledore had to die anyway; only harry could defeat voldemort, he couldn't protect harry any longer, and harry knew everything he needed to know. still with me? what do you guys think?????
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Old 09-18-2005, 03:21 PM
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Old 09-20-2005, 04:46 PM
tigerlovesharry tigerlovesharry is offline Scan tigerlovesharry
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Good thinking Emily butterfly! There must be more than what meets the eye. hmmm
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Old 10-11-2005, 08:15 PM
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Nope. The theory still doesn't work for me.
The body was lying on the ground, for all to see.
Someone picked it up.
Someone prepared it for the funeral.
Hagrid himself carried it.

Unless Hagrid was in on the conspiracy.
Would you expect Hagrid to keep such a secret?
And, if he knew Dumbledore was really alive somewhere,
could he put on such a show as he did at the funeral?
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Old 10-11-2005, 08:27 PM
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========================

Oh, wait-wait. I got it.
It's about Petunia.

Whatever she's holding back, whatever surprises she has,
the shock of Dumbledore's death will bring it out.
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Old 10-18-2005, 05:30 AM
harryisdbest harryisdbest is offline Scan harryisdbest
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i wish dumbledore is alive but jk rowling
has planned everything for us . we just have to wait .
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Old 10-22-2005, 08:02 PM
DAdonnie DAdonnie is offline Scan DAdonnie
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I really enjoyed this post, thank you for spending that kind of time preparing a statement like that one for all to read. I think that everything you said has a chance of being true. I think that if there is something fishy up, then maybe Dumbledore will leave a memory in the pensive proving snapes involvment with him. Also Don't forget that Snape had many chances to cast something on Harry when he was in hot pursuit. He did nothing but block Harrys spells, why not try to hurt him, disarm him in front of the other deatheaters, something? Thank you again for putting yourself into that "paper esck" post, you got me thinking.

DAdonnie
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Old 10-28-2005, 01:57 PM
papasmurf papasmurf is offline Scan papasmurf
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Quote:
Nope. The theory still doesn't work for me.
The body was lying on the ground, for all to see.
Someone picked it up.
Someone prepared it for the funeral.
Hagrid himself carried it.

Unless Hagrid was in on the conspiracy.
Would you expect Hagrid to keep such a secret?
And, if he knew Dumbledore was really alive somewhere,
could he put on such a show as he did at the funeral?
[/b]
I am inclined to agree that he is dead, beacuse I have a hard time believing that Dumbledore would fake his death, unless it is for an extremly good reason. It would hurt too many people and, especialy, he knows how devastating it would be for Harry.

But.............

I had thought about his flying from the spell also when I first read it, but got lost in theories about other topics, and never thought about it again. Until now. If he is not dead, which I hope he is not, it makes alot more sense. Snape would have had to want to kill Dumbledore, so if Snape is good, which I believe he is, then he could not have done it. Therefore, his casting of the spell would not have killed him, but knocked him over the wall, the same way that Harry's curse knocked Bella down.
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Old 10-29-2005, 10:33 AM
tigerlovesharry tigerlovesharry is offline Scan tigerlovesharry
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That was what I was thinking at first until I looked at The website:www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com. It has a lot of interesting facts about the death of him.
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Old 11-01-2005, 02:38 PM
Baiku Baiku is offline Scan Baiku
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Again, Dumbldor said that not all spells work the same way- Harry is the only one to live after and unforgivable curse- Dumbldor could easily have a different effect as well - being a powerful wizard- having drunk that poison from the cave could have made the reaction different too-

All the nonverbals also have to do with Merlin IRL and what kind of wizard he was and may be her need to add that into the books.

I think that Dumbldor is dead, not gone but dead. He was that transfiguartion teacher, and I think he made the statues in Order save Harry by using transfiguration- If he wanted to save himself he could have- but death is not something to be feared and Dumbldor would have gladly given his life for Harry's life.

Dumbldor is dead but not gone.
I do think that Dumbldor used the time turner and did know more than he ever said in the books -- that is why the Wessles always watched him in his study - He was elsewares in time aswell. And, Dumbldor does not need the cloak to invisible - and is in the castle without us seeing him - but still there. But, Dumbldor is still dead and Snape Killed him.
Baiku
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Old 11-02-2005, 11:28 AM
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Baiku said, "...that is why the Wessles always watched him in his study..."
What does that mean?
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